Hi Folks, I finally figured out how to enter this forum, and I'm really surprised and delighted to see so much interest in the V grip . That's so neat. Perhaps I can respond to a few points in the discussion. VKAN said: > From the sounds of it, it's the four-sided attack blade folks sent > out sketches, then photos of a couple of years ago. Can you point me to that previous news? Someone that I spoke with at the US Nationals mentioned hearing something like that, but I have never been able to find anything on it. AGOODING2 said: > It seems to depend more on the shoulder to open and close the blade > than on the wrist. I wonder if this is a benefit or a disadvantage. This is true, and I think it's an advantage, because it's harder to make big errors moving large muscles over large joints than it is moving small muscles over small joints. That's why I think the V grip gives you more control even though it has an extended reach. You have to work a little more, but athleticism in table tennis is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's as if the grip forces you to develop good habits in your larger full-body movements. markw61066 said: > Anyone here actually using this grip? Not that I'm considering using > it, but I'd be interested in whether this grip has adopted any sort > of real following. So far I'm the only person I know that is using it seriously, although several people have said they're trying it out. Maybe the V grip will have to change its name to become the Veatch grip, if I continue to be the only one ;-) Table tennis players turn out to be quite conservative, for good technical reasons. Once you establish a foundation of basic strokes, you want to move forward and get better, using what you've built up so far. That's pretty natural and reasonable. But it makes it hard for people to switch or even try an experiment that might take a while. I've heard from friends that have switched to shakehand from penhold that it takes 6 months to a year to stabilize; that's roughly similar to my own experience. That puts a high cost on innovation. So no, it's not being taken up rapidly, but there are a few early adopters who see what I'm saying and have been trying it out. The way to make an easy experiment of it is to get a steady drill partner, and promise yourself you'll stick it out for fifteen minutes of backhand flat-hitting with the ring finger side of the paddle, even if you hit a bunch of balls straight up in the air before you calibrate the basic forearm rotation. Try to avoid putting a lot of spin on the ball before you get some confidence doing basic flat-hits. By then you should begin to see what I'm saying. NILSO said: > this grip seem to mean that the same rubber side is used for offense > on both wings, while the other rubber is used for defense on both > wings. Makes it quite a bit easier to choose rubbers it seems? I am > understanding this right? Yes, the thumb side is *mostly* for underspin on both forehand and backhand, and the ring finger side is *mostly* for topspin on both forehand and backhand. But the V grip playing style does include a forehand attack topspin with the thumb side (which VKAN thinks is the natural forehand stroke, actually), as well as backhand chops and pushes with the ring finger side, so it wouldn't be right to say one side is *purely* for offense and the other *purely* for defense. Not that you said that, of course. VKAN said: > > this grip seem to mean that the same rubber side is used for > > offense on both wings, while the other rubber is used for defense > > on both wings. > >I don't think this is entirely right (maybe 3/4 :-). >Shortly after reading the article, I went to try it out using the >Butterfly Backface blade, which works remarkably well for this >technique (as I suspect all Japanese-style blades with twiddle >handles, e.g. the Butterfly Selebes, could). I agree. > The natural technique >for rallying play is to use opposite sides for topspin play on >backhand and forehand, just like shakehand. But you can, with great >precision required, use the backhand side of the racket for extreme >topspin (likely against heavy topspin only) on the forehand >side. The thumb side forehand topspin is indeed natural, but I didn't see the player in China using it at all, and only discovered it by trial and error here. As compared with the ring finger side (what you're calling the backhand side) forehand topspin the thumb side forehand topspin gives less spin, has a contact point farther away from the table, and is less versatile and powerful. So I prefer the ring side for forehand topspins wherever I have a choice. What you mention, about the need for extreme precision to use the ring-side forehand topspin, is actually only true with what turns out to be the wrong body posture, namely, the usual forward-leaning body crouch that everyone is supposed to use for all table tennis strokes. This stroke is an exception. With the ring-finger-side forehand-topspin, it gives much improved control and consistency if you lean your body BACK, like a jai alai player. With a back leaning posture, perhaps also leaning toward the bat-hand side, the problems you point out go away: control is excellent, power is abundant, you can hit flat as well as with any degree of topspin, and shots do not require extreme precision for stability. I know this sounds wierd, but trust me. Basically what you're doing with the ring-side forehand stroke is the same motion as if you were pounding your fist against a table or against a wall (palm vertical); it has the same feeling, power and naturalness, but you have to reorient your body to make that possible, and leaning back does just that. > It's similar to the forehand sided upside down penhold backhand >loop technique I've mentioned before. Yes, that's right. >On the backhand side, you can >use the forehand side of the racket for extreme chop. This >blade/technique is fantastic for cross court side spinning. You're making me smile, because I know exactly what you mean. We should use 'thumb' and 'ring-finger' sides, though, or maybe Top and Bottom (with reference to neutral position with the palm vertical and blade horizontal), because "forehand side" is ambiguous. Actually you can also chop and do pushes with the ring-finger side. >Inside >out with the reversed side spin is more difficult, but I suppose you >could use the body rotation mentioned in the article to accomplish it >using the opposite side of the racket. I'm not sure what you mean. >Chopping using the same blade >face as for topspin was pretty good. The extreme chop side will take >a while to get used to. I didn't try much blocking with it, but I'm >sure it'll take time to get used to as well. It's super at blocking wide shots, but it's weak around the elbow. >But D*MN, this >technique is really fun for away from the table looping. When I >first heard of the 4-sided blade a couple of years ago, I thought it >would be the ultimate combination blade to use with long pips or >anti, but it's not because access to the "four" sides isn't really >equal, and you can't twiddle with the pistol grip blade mentioned in >the article. True. Penhold players can twiddle into and out of the V grip by simply moving their thumb around to the other side of the blade, and considering that my serves are better with the V grip than even my strong penhold serves, I would recommend serving with the V grip and twiddling back to penhold, to penholders that want to strengthen their serves. I am finding that I can deaden my opponents' topspins and even do above-the-table topspin flicks against (not very strong) underspin. So the effect of anti seems to be something you can simulate with sticky rubber with the V grip because it's so good at both blocking and accelerating. > It might be good for inverted and short-pips sponge >combos for flat hitting on the forehand with an extreme topspin >option, and topspin on the backhand with an uncomfortable flat hit >option. That's a great idea! I've been doing nothing but inverted-rubber since I switched to the V grip, but I need to try out my Clippa some more and see if I can do something with it. I think pips-out on the thumb side, exactly as you're saying. Flat-hitting or topspin with the backhand thumb side is actually the same stroke as the penhold backhand drive, another interesting discovery. But considering how long it took me to figure out the penhold backhand, I wouldn't recommend doing much with this unless you're a penholder who has already worked out how to do that stroke well. VKAN says: > > You can use the style with a regular blade. > I disagree. Without the knobs perpendicular to the face of the > blade, you have to exert force between your forefinger and middle > finger to pinch the blade. This makes your wrist tight and less able > to use the techniques that go naturally with the proper type of > blade. It's like playing penhold with a shakehand blade (or vice > versa), only worse. Sure you CAN, but it doesn't feel right and you > would be much more successful with the right equipment. Yes, exactly right. For me the solution was to superglue some perpendicular cork posts onto my (short handled!) Chinese penhold paddle and to shape them anatomically to form a thumb rest which I can squeeze between thumb and forefinger. Also I added small cork wedges mid-way down the handle for the bottom of my thumb and third joint of my ring finger to squeeze. And finally I shaved off the sharp corners where the butt of the handle presses against the base of my thumb. The result feels very solid while being easy to hold. That is, I don't need to squeeze the paddle blade between the forefinger and middle finger at all; the hand is almost completely relaxed while holding the blade quite solidly. > Twiddle-style Japanese penhold blades work OK for this style, but > aren't optimal and may be why I found the "extreme side" usage a bit > difficult. I really have to find a way to show you all some pictures! My 14-year-old niece and I are planning to make an instructional video on her new Macintosh, but that will probably be a few months in coming. Is there anyone in Seattle reading this who can help with a digitizing camera? Best regards to you all, Tom Veatch